The comments I have received have been nothing short of brilliant. Incisive, thoughtful, heartfelt and verging on the kind of discourse I hope I live long enough to see in the world outside our little OS universe. I am reposting this piece along with those comments. I will keep and value them forever.
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REPOST WITH COMMENTS
Let's Talk About Race
May 18, 2010 -- An Open Salon blogger’s riveting piece on growing up black on the Southside of Chicago really got my wheels turning. In her post, Raised on Racism: A Survival Story, Keka described how the blatant and pervasive racism, as practiced there in the mid-20th century, shaped her very existence. It just so happens that she also described my reality, with a few variations – I am a few years older than she is, and I grew up in one of Chicago’s western suburbs. And, as I have revealed in earlier posts, I saw all sides of the *race problem* up close and personal, because my family is black, white and Native American. That didn’t matter, though, because I look, well, not white. Most black people know I’m black by looking at me, but many non-blacks have to ask.
Keka’s piece was dead on, but with no overtones of judgment against those responsible for the constant danger we were in every day of our lives. It was what it was. It got me to thinking about a question that crops up occasionally in the press, a question that I have even tried to answer from my unusual perspective: why is it so hard for white people to have a discussion with black people about race? I have never succeeded, though.
There was a time in corporate America when cultural diversity was the topic of the day. Human Resources departments were compelled to hire diversity experts to conduct formal training programs to help employees understand cultural differences, yes; but more importantly, they believed, cultural intersections. Can’t we all just get along? The powers that be were required to believe we could, and they were throwing time and money at the effort left and right.
I am not aware of one such class at my company that didn’t end with a black employee screaming wildly at some white co-worker because he or she said something insensitive, broke the unwritten laws of discourse with a black person. There were reports of pushing and shoving, veiled and not-so-veiled threats, and tears – lots of tears. Other skirmishes erupted when a white employee would inevitably take offense at what was perceived as being blamed for the sins of the forefathers. Same result.
After a while, white employees started refusing to attend the seminars. And that pissed off the black employees no end. Some were jeering, calling whites wusses (and much worse). Stereotypes that were once only whispered in homogeneous company were being hurled, loudly, from both sides.
When I get into conversations about race in America with my friends of all racial, social and sexual persuasions, one of my closest white friends becomes visibly agitated and usually flees, mumbling some excuse about being sleepy or hungry or late. She will do just about anything to avoid being labeled a racist, and she is afraid that her mouth will write a check her ass can’t cash. (A little ‘hood talk, for effect. ~snerk~) She doesn’t trust even me enough to speak her true feelings and observations without fear of “saying the wrong thing.”
So, tell me. Is it possible to have an honest exchange of points of view, of feelings and beliefs between white and black Americans without all hell breaking loose? Under what circumstances would that be possible?
Comments
When I found out Mohammed Ali had spoken at a KKK rally, it blew my mind right out of the temporal waters.
The world is insane, my dear. Purely insane. Only time and a great deal of science will solve this.
Doug Socks
May 18, 2010 05:10 PM
One big sigh. Let me get back to you about your question.
Wonderfully written, Lezlie. _r
Joan H.
May 18, 2010 05:17 PM
Ya got me there Lin. I've had the same thoughts many, many times. I do have a couple of friends who are black, but our friendships have been built on commonalities like our kookie relatives, our kids, and just exchanging stories and support over time. We have danced close to the subject of race, racism, people we know (blacks and whites) who do or say things we believe are racist, but haven't shared our personal experiences with it yet. I guess we may not want to ruin the harmony we've got going because you're right, fights break out! It's an old subject, yet still a fire starter.
Gabby Abby
May 18, 2010 05:20 PM
I think not. And you point out all the reasons why right here. I would never even have the nerve to say out loud in person that it's not possible. Then the blame would start all around as to whose fault it is that it's not possible. I haven't checked out Keka's comment on big Salon yet, but I understand she's gotten some doozies.-r
DensieW
May 18, 2010 05:24 PM
this is a wonderful and thought provoking post. and i've had this conversation with a friend of mine who is black. she and i respect each other as people, but also know that are backgrounds and experiences are different in ways simply because of our respective races. We are honest with each other and recognize that all of us do have some racist viewpoints in us, even if it is not our intent to have them. She has asked me how I see certain things as a white woman and I have asked her she views certain things as a black woman. Neither of us takes offense at those questions.
I, however, think you are right in that most people are not able to do this for various reasons. Race is a volatile subject and many people are afraid, as you said, to "write a check her ass can't cash."
lemonpulp
May 18, 2010 05:30 PM
Doug, well that would be a start, I guess. What science, pray tell, will be brought to bear on this issue?
Joan H.: Thanks, but I'm looking forward to getting your take on this.
Gabby Abby: but why would an open exchange of personal feelings in a neutral venue ruin what you have? Isn't it possible it could take it to higher level?
L in the Southeast
May 18, 2010 05:31 PM
I don't know the answer, at all. It is a sticky wicket at best. My experience as a lesbian leads me to believe that some concessions have to be made on both sides - when someone asks me about GLBT issues, I try to determine whether they're genuinely asking because they want to know, or whether their motives are a) to tell me what I should think, b) to use as further ammunition to bolster their argument for future reference, or c) a means by which to try to humiliate me/mine. Or d) a passive-aggressive way to determine whether or not they can make GLBT jokes without reprisal. So, in order to foster actual discussion, I often have to keep my hackles down no matter what is said.
I can only guess how much more difficult the discussion of race might be.
Owl_Says_WhoM
May 18, 2010 05:34 PM
lemonpulp: we both know that it's possible. It takes courage and it takes real respect for the other person, as a person, not a color. If more of us don't make the effort, there is absolutely no hope. And now we can add Latinos to the mix. There is often no love lost between Mexicans and blacks, at least around here.
L in the Southeast
May 18, 2010 05:34 PM
I think it is not only possible but way over due. As for the reasons, well in my experience anything that is less than absolute guilt on the one side or the other seems to instill a fear of being taken the wrong way. Me I'll talk as long as everybody agrees that we will not leap to conclusions about each other. See, here is just a tiny part of my position. I'm white, or Caucasian, if you will. I am ethnically Irish and that means that my ancestors, at least some of them were kidnapped by the British and hauled to the new world as slaves to work on the plantations, not indentured servants but out and out bought and sold slaves. We Irish were also considered colored in the south as well. We faced lynchings and being discriminated against. I'm not going to post a bunch of links here since it would take forever and overwhelm the comments, but they are not hard to find. Still when approached by a person of color my save heritage is denied and ignored simply because my skin is white. I'm not saying that we had it worse or as long and that was because of our white skin yet the fact is that we were. When I have spoken with people of color the door slams shut as soon as I bring this up. The usual reason is because I'm a white man and all white men are racists. Well I'm not and I will never be one just because someone else decides that I am. I realize that being colorblind is not the usual way people see things but I will work the rest of my days to try and move people back to being people. I don't care what you look like or who you sleep with or where you live. I am not responsible for what others who look like me did any more than every person of German ancestry is responsible for the murder of millions of Jews, Gypsys, homosexuals, intellectuals, the mentally ill, and the physically handicapped. I will stand with anyone who is discriminated against and have all of my life. I don't seek thanks or recognition for it, I want a better world for everyone. I know a lot of people won't accept this. I am sorry they don't but, for my position, I don't think we can go forward if we tie everything to the past. No one can fix the wrongs done by those who came before them, all we can do is keep them from happening again.
I hope that you will still like me, I have no ill will or grudge here. I just want people to see each other as people first, not to bind up every one with into bundles by skin color, sexuality, religion, or ethnic background.
bobbot
May 18, 2010 05:36 PM
To be clear, I have no intention of trying to compare the two issues, or the discussion thereof, nor to divert from the issue under discussion, just to share my experience thus far. I look forward to following this thread, though.
Owl_Says_Who
May 18, 2010 05:36 PM
In my very humble opinion, I think that it SHOULD a topic just like anything that can be discussed and all parties receptive, but I don't forsee it being so in the near future.
In my experience, I think the problem is sensitivity. No one wants to be perceived in a negative light. I tend to make jokes about race in front of my friends because it SHOULDN'T be a big deal. I think the sensitivity is still there because by and large racism still does exist in today's society, although not as blatantly as in previous decades. We're not that far removed from the Civil Rights Movement. My parents still remember having to drink at "colored" water fountains and not being served at white only establishments. While many who lived during that time don't really hold a "grudge" persay, historically, the wound is still fresh. The election of the first African American President may have also made it even more difficult to talk about. African Americans, who have been told that having a President of color would NEVER happen in their lifetime (I was told the same in school in the 80s), tend to be protective of the first. The hositlity is real, the problem is still real, therefore sensitivity has increased. I think it'll happen, but it will take a while.
theone69
May 18, 2010 05:39 PM
There is a White Problem in America. There always has been a White Problem in America. Race, in America, unlike in Europe, beats the hell out of Class, as fundamental to understanding America.
R.
Jonathan Wolfman
May 18, 2010 05:47 PM
Denise W: sorry, I didn't mean to skip you. You are right, of course, but dammit, we just have to find a way. If we start with people like us, in the safety of the blogosphere, at least it would be a small, but intelligent start.
L in the Southeast
May 18, 2010 05:49 PM
Maybe when the talk of slavery provokes the same outrage that talk of welfare does.
Amanda G
May 18, 2010 05:51 PM
Now, see there Bobbot? You stated your position rationally, clearly and with emotion. But then you said you hope I will still like you. I practically love you, man. What you said here is absolutely true. I, who likes to think I am pretty well-informed, learned about the Irish enslavement right here in this place -- from you! I was never taught that. You will not be hated for saying what you said. You will be respected by me and people like me, who are ready to face forward and get on with it.
L in the Southeast
May 18, 2010 05:55 PM
Lezlie, I've got to tell you that I've been formatting a piece on race from my perspective, but I've been leaving it unfinished because it will take considerable focus and I've had too many distractions. I'll see if I can get cracking and put it up later this week (and check to see if my insurance is paid).
An honest conversation requires honesty with oneself, and people like to pretend they are free of prejudice. Nobody is totally free of it, really - some attitudes, even minor, can get ingrained at a young age - and if someone can't admit that up front, honesty is impossible.
Cranky Cuss
May 18, 2010 05:55 PM
Bless your heart! Keep swingin', sistah. I don't know if we can have this conversation, but keep tryin' anyway. As for me, I'm bloodied but not bowed. It's all good. As you said, we NEED this conversation. I have a coupla "owies," but I'll survive.
THANKS for the support! And...nice writin', too! A profound question...which needs answering and pondering...
Keka
May 18, 2010 05:56 PM
Owl: What you do is part of the answer. You keep your hackles down until you determine the motives of the questioner. You give him/her the benefit of the doubt until they establish intent. I personally haven't met too many people with cojones big enough to deliberately start a fight. Their questions, no matter how assinine they might seem, are usually coming from a genuine desire to know. How you react to the question makes all the difference.
L in the Southeast
May 18, 2010 06:10 PM
Jonathan: however you choose to characterize it, it is uniquely American and it cannot be fixed without a concerted effort to stifle their emotions from both sides.
L in the Southeast
May 18, 2010 06:12 PM
Amanda: How do you do that? You get straight to the heart of the matter in such a few words!
L in the Southeast
May 18, 2010 06:13 PM
Cranky: I can't wait to see what you come up with. I know it will be an important addition to the dialogue.
L in the Southeast
May 18, 2010 06:15 PM
Keka, I haven't had a chance to get over to Big Salon to see what they've done to you, but hang in there. If we had total agreement, there wouldn't be a need to write about it. Pray for me. lol
L in the Southeast
May 18, 2010 06:16 PM
I'd be more than happy to enter into that discussion with you. Part of it is I've just made it my business to be informed, some of it is asking myself a lot of questions and being surprised by some of the answers I found. It is a necessary conversation. Racism is still an enormous factor in American life and the extent to which we're in denial drives me nuts.
One lesson I've learned, for what it's worth, is never to play the competitive persecution game. I've seen that done between blacks and Jews and it doesn't work, largely because about the only thing comparable about their persecution experiences is their scope - their nature is completely different. Unfortunately, most of the persecution vocabulary was developed for Jews - genocide, holocaust, ghetto - and doesn't really fit the black experience. The one word that does fit the black experience - pogrom - is the one that isn't used.
I've got too much to say on this topic to post in answer to a blog; I'll try to say more over time.
koshersalaami
May 18, 2010 06:23 PM
Someone (ignorant) asked me the other day about why all the census racial questions, retorting "Well, if we are all supposed to be post- racial why is this important?" We aren't "post-racial" because there will not be a time in anyone's lives for a long time when the color of your skin and texture of your hair and the shape of your face is not going to impact how people perceive and react to you.
Racism is not a discussion of race, or how our perceptions are different, or even about who is responsible for the history of systematic discrimination and hierarchy. Racism is about deciding that race (color, other "racial" identifying factor") is going to determine the rest of your life over all other things.
If I ignored "race" in patients, I would be doing a disservice, as a knowledge of genetic, social, economic and geographic history will tell me a lot about risk factors. To pretend my black friends didn't grow up with a different set of fears because I treat them as equals now is just whitewashing. To assume all whites, males, and rich are the oppressor is to buy into the story and perpetuate it. Racism goes in every direction and towards every shade of human.
Oryoki Bowl
May 18, 2010 06:26 PM
koshersalaami: Thanks for chiming in. You raise a very interesting point. Oppression in general has similar results, but there are truly separate and distinct forms of the oppression. I have never understood why groups must argue over which group is the most oppressed. I look forward to reading your thoughts.
L in the Southeast
May 18, 2010 06:27 PM
I can talk all day about it, but I was raised in diverse neighborhoods, cities and states. I have friends of all shapes and colors. Set some ground rules, and go at it. (wear a face mask if possible)
scanner
May 18, 2010 07:11 PM
I wrote a huge comment in response to this. It's a very compelling subject. I want to write a post about this soon because the comment became insanely long.
But, in the meantime, I think you sum it up so well here:
"Owl: What you do is part of the answer. You keep your hackles down until you determine the motives of the questioner. You give him/her the benefit of the doubt until they establish intent. I personally haven't met too many people with cojones big enough to deliberately start a fight. Their questions, no matter how assinine they might seem, are usually coming from a genuine desire to know. How you react to the question makes all the difference."
I absolutely agree. Without ugly or mean intent the hackles should stay down. I see here, and everywhere, offense taken when the "offender' seems genuinely innocent of intent to harm- so i think this is at the root of it all. Realize most people are messes, and it's best to give them the benefit of the doubt- in instances where you know, in your gut, they mean no harm. Save the hackles for the truly bad people, who do exist(sadly.)
fernsy
May 18, 2010 07:14 PM
I went over to read Keka's brilliant piece over on Salon. I was taken aback by some of the comments. I am always always always shocked by ignorance. Really, I am ill that in 2010 people still don't get it.
Joan H.
May 18, 2010 07:17 PM
Oryoki Bowl: Thanks for you thought-provoking comments. I don't know if I'm misconstruing your words, but what I think is that human nature drives people to categorize: hair color, body type, weight, height, eye color, etc. in order to make things more predictable. It doesn't work, it is wrong-headed, but it happens all the time, everywhere.
L in the Southeast
May 18, 2010 07:31 PM
What a great post. This discussion thread is as good as it gets...
Bobbot and Amanda G..Right on!
Rated
Brie
May 18, 2010 07:34 PM
The science I spoke of...wayyyy up there at the top...was science in general my dear.
Once we begin to affirm the supremecy of facts over fantasy, then perhaps we can have our opinions shaped not by the biases of our mindless preconceptions, but by the scientific understanding of eachother and the world in logical terms.
That is not to say that we shouldn't have our fantasies and our imaginations, but we should keep them where they belong...within the confines of reason.
If emotions and fantasy are the water, the glass shall be our logic. Without such a set up, we are but chaotic pools and dripping fools.
Doug Socks
May 18, 2010 07:37 PM
Whoa! Thanks for clearing that up, Dougie. :-)
L in the Southeast
May 18, 2010 07:42 PM
Hi, Brie. I don't think we've met. Welcome and thanks. I'm loving this thread too. See, we can have a civil exchange (so far, anyway.)
L in the Southeast
May 18, 2010 07:44 PM
I think it's absolutely possible. I don't know all the answers about with whom or when, I just know it can happen.
Elisa Rodgers
May 18, 2010 07:45 PM
By the heading, I thought this post was about NASCAR.
{[R]}
Leepin Larry
May 18, 2010 08:08 PM
Aww, Larry. I hope you're not too disappointed. I'm glad you stopped in.
L in the Southeast
May 18, 2010 08:11 PM
Very good post. My answer to your question is very idealistic: one cannot fully understand another without walking in his or her shoes. r.
Bernadine Spitzsnogel
May 18, 2010 08:23 PM
Hi, Bea. Glad to see you. Here's the thing. Those tea-baggers and the like may not have thought of this yet, but they WILL walk in the shoes of all of America's minorities in the not-too-distant future. In a few more decades, the majority will not be white. For the first time in the nation's young history, whites will form just another minority group.
L in the Southeast
May 18, 2010 08:29 PM
I don't have an answer to your question, I know, I've had discussions with my friends, who are of all shades of color, from the deep midnight black to the most palest of whites, and we all agree, Starbuck coffee sucks!!!
:)
Rated.
Tinkerertink69
May 18, 2010 08:45 PM
Thanks, Tink. You are a very cool cat, and I am never going to Starbuck's again.
L in the Southeast
May 18, 2010 08:57 PM
It's very hard for whites to talk about race because they tend to be ignorant of the real hows and whys of who has a good job in a good neighborhood with good healthcare and who has everything else. People try to justify the injustice--which really can't be done. Blame the victim is big part of this. I had people challenge me and I read stuff and I eventually read maybe too much stuff. I remember that a friend in Chicago (where whites tended to always assume that if you were white, you were just as racist as they were) was telling me about watching the 20/20 on race that sent 2 young men around a city to get an apartment, a job, a car--and even though they were equally educated and in other ways equal, the black man was denied an apartment, a job, and paid more for the car. He was also treated like a potential criminal in some other situations. It took the "hidden camera" for her to see. I don't know how much it changed her. I think the average white person needs a LOT of lessons. Rated!
nolalibrarian
May 18, 2010 09:00 PM
nolalibrarian: I have always been curious about how a person who is white behaves in the midst of racist banter. My ex-husband is white (from Forest Park). When we first met he would remain silent and walk away when anyone in the office where we worked made a bigoted remark. After we became a couple, his reaction was much different. He took it personally and let the offender know that in no uncertain terms.
L in the Southeast
May 18, 2010 09:09 PM
Personally, no, I think there is no way to have that conversation unless you know the backgrounds and the sand lines of everyone in that conversation. That's not possible online, and this is not the kind of topic that you can quibble on. It's too personal for that. I mean if my friend comes up and says Susie said xyz to me and I say oh, you know she didn't mean it that way. It's going to be seen as trying to find the middle ground, smoothing things out. If we were discussing race, it would be me not backing someone up fundamentally who trusted me. It's too close to the heart. There is no middle ground.
Talking about it is necessary, but just digs people in further wherever they are already, so I dunno how to do it. To be honest I've never known how to do it, and I've been surrounded by different cultures of one sort or another my whole life.
hyblaean- Julie
May 18, 2010 09:09 PM
hyblaean-julie: you're right, it's very difficult and fraught with opportunities for hurt feelings and misunderstandings. But what's the alternative? Our country is heading for the kinds of divisions that lead to civil war.
L in the Southeast
May 18, 2010 10:10 PM
L: I could write volumes about this, but I won't. :-)
In order to have cogent, meaningful conversation about race, we all have to have basic ground rules set...or at least an acceptance of some much demonstrated principle of humankind.
1. We all have biases.
2. Biases can prompt prejudiced or bigoted statements, actions or feelings.
3. Having made prejudiced/bigoted statements or actions does not immediately qualify a person for KKK (or the other racial/minority equivalent) membership.
4. We all have some degree of privilege (race, class, education, for example)
5. We must acknowledge the effect of that privilege when considering those who do not share the same privilege.
6. Discussing race does not make one racist.
7. Discussing race clumsily can create tension but if one can remember that making a gaffe or clumsy statement does not automatically and absolutely make one a racist, perhaps the fear of "stepping in it" could lessen somewhat.
8. Colorblind racism is as insidious and burdensome as a series of 50 paper cuts a day.
9. A person's feelings are neither right nor wrong...they just are.
10. One should stay on his/her own side of the street and not seek to tell another how he or she should think, feel or respond.
If we could all get with these basic concepts, discussions could be had. But I find that rarely are we as adults taught to engage respectfully, communicate fairly, and listen as much as we speak in any area.
Ah well...
teendoc
May 18, 2010 10:46 PM
Brilliant, teendoc. I was about to say "and that's all it would take to talk our way through..." but thought "wait a minute. How in holy hell would we get all these people, some of whom don't have much grey matter to work with, or so it would appear, to even agree on these basic ground rules?
But then I look at this thread of highly reasoned, heartfelt responses to my question and I get hopeful again. Sigh...
L in the Southeast
May 18, 2010 10:56 PM
Lynn, I think that the gist of what I am saying was two fold. One, it would be disingenuous and wrong to pretend there aren't both physical and cultural racial identity characteristics that people have. To pretend to ignore them is to assume that identifying them is harmful rather than celebratory. Two, using any of those reasons to form broad based characterizations in order to promote or demote someone is bad.
I think my best "enlightenment" to the issues others have expressed was while I lived in Denmark. I have a cousin who is Danish who is also half Ghana-an. People heard us speak english, assuming it was she who was the American. I had a good friend I met there, an au pair from Chicago, and Sri Lankan by birth, who I thought was the hippest coolest chic I knew. She would tell me of the insidious ways that she was "isolated" for her dark skin. It made me sad and mad, and several times I spoke up to people when there were only white people around. I realized then, and continue, that it is partly my job to learn to see where I didn't realize there were problems. It's impossible to walk in another shoes, or to try to, but it's okay to learn more on both sides of a gap in understanding. I hope I get to be happy about my scandinavian-ness without having it compared to anything else.
Oryoki Bowl
May 19, 2010 12:30 AM
Teendoc,
Excellent series of comments.
koshersalaami
May 19, 2010 01:02 AM
Unfortunately, America still has many of the most racist people on the planet. What happens when you ask some people whom they voted for or their political affiliation? Most democrats or liberals will respond immediately; right wingers will look offended. The people who are uncomfortable taking about race (or politics) are usually racists.
For example, many Americans are fuming with anger because Obama is black. You can feel their confusion ridiculously trying to find negative adjectives to pin on him; yet what really wakes them up nights is the simple fact that he is black.
What adds to the nastiness of racism in America is religion. Only in America many people believe in a "white" Jesus who came only for the white people and wants blacks and others dead. These are the most dangerous of racists.
Excellent post, L, R.
Thoth
May 19, 2010 01:37 AM
Wow. I was unable to get online yesterday, so I missed this. I will post my comment anyway.
Racial discussions are difficult because everyone sees the world through their own prism. At an African American Studies class at the University of Chicago, I had a great deal of exposure to the attitudes and beliefs of all races. Even in an environment where people are opened and willing, there is simply a lack of understanding and a failure to recognize that many of the negative attitudes felt about blacks are programmed...television, news reports, etc. I remember one young girl admitted a lack of understanding about why Blacks had not progressed (look at Oprah). I thought the young African American girl who tried to explain was right-on. She said, "Imagine we are in a race. You've had the benefit of training, a coach and somewhere to practice. You have a sponsor, the necessary equipment and someone to give you water along the way. I don't have any of that.
Why shouldn't you win the race?"
I was in Thailand where I saw a commercial on television...a black person climbed into a huge cauldron of Oil of Olay and emerged a blue eyed blonde. I could go on forever. Excellent post L.
Fay Paxton
May 19, 2010 12:52 PM
Fay, I once worked in PR at the University of Chicago.
There seems to be a refusal or at least an inability on the parts of certain whites to really SEE the diversity within the black community. All my life I have confronted people who have made idiotic statements about their beliefs about black people. When I ask if that's the way they see me, they say some version of "well, you're different." "How am I different?" I ask. "You just are."
If they were to be completely truthful they would say "because you don't sound black, you don't act like the ones I see on TV, you are smart -- you just don't fit the stereotype. They never stopped to think that maybe the TV characters they mentioned are the ones who are *different*.
L in the Southeast
May 19, 2010 07:29 PM
This discussion is quite stimulating..so I came back for more. I'm glad I did. Teendoc.. your comments are very insightful. I'm glad I came back for more.
Brie
May 19, 2010 07:44 PM
One would think that the "conversation about race" would be possible. I suppose it is possible, but you are right, it is elusive.
Born in the early 60's, I have seen it discussed since kindergarten. MLK Jr. was killed the year I went to kindergarten, which I suppose prompted some conversation. But when I look back over the way this conversation has been done, since it has been done, I see that it has never really been accomplished. The "conversation" seems to basically boil down to absolving some person in the present of guilt, and establishing proper party manners going forward, to promote "tolerance", and prevent rude comments. These things are not the "conversation". These things dont come close.
The American experience is multi-layered self delusions and euphemisms. How many layers, I have no idea. Race, or perhaps skin color is but one of the many layers in the American system of totems and belief systems. Since I can remember, the race "conversation" has focused on how to say or not say something, and rarely how to think. Political correctness came closest to doing something about it, and it has failed as I thought it would. P.C. is like trying to fix a heart congestion problem by adding an aspirin to your daily dozen donuts. It does not address the basic problem. Eventually everyone kept the donuts and dumped the aspirin.
Race is a belief system, like so many other anti-reason systems in America. Race is that fraudulent opinion teflon like so many other pieces of opinion teflon in American thought. We have a deep, wide, turbulent moat of unreason in Western thought which seeks to discourage reason. Race is a set up. Western thought is about moving individuals to markets in a reliably predictable manner. Race is one of those levers. Race is a binary, a dichotomy, a knee jerk. It is a social construct to get people to react. The reaction is predictable, readable, and therefore bankable. Racism is not about the various deplorable words euphemistically discussed with single letters designed to maintain the concept while obscuring the utterance. Racism is about dichotomies, division, and predictably good business. Racism is like sending cattle thru chutes to separate them so that they can be killed, processed, and consumed individually. Racism does not serve the brown cow, or the black cow, or the spotted cow any differently. The only one served by the process is the carnivore.
Bill Beck
May 21, 2010 08:42 AMAuthor tags:repost with comments
After you posted this the other day, I finally read Keka's post, which was one of the best things I've read here. Unfortunately, outside the little OS community, there are a lot of people who glee in stirring up trouble while hiding in their anonymity.
Thank you for pushing the topic. I haven't forgotten my promise to write about the subject (next week, I hope - I've taken a self-imposed sabbatical from writing for a few days).
Cranky Cuss
May 21, 2010 11:31 AM
My hiatus was imposed by a workload I haven't seen since I was in the prison they called a corporation. The Federal Government expects an awful lot in exchange for a very little. But, it's bringing in money...
L in the Southeast
May 21, 2010 11:34 AM
Brava! Thanks for pointing out one of the greatest features of OS -- the often wonderful comments and discussion that emerges from people posts. Sometimes, the comments are even more enlightening than the original essays. RATED
Nick Leshi
May 21, 2010 11:38 AMHi, Nick. Thanks, I agree with you. These were just too darned good to keep to myself.
L in the Southeast
May 21, 2010 11:43 AM
Teendoc is a rockstar. Great discussion - thanks for the repost. I'll have to go read that article.
The comments on Big Salon are generally, um, way more vicious than we ever see here.
aim
May 21, 2010 11:46 AM
L, I'm sorry I missed the original post. This is very well done, and the responses, as you noted are part of the package. First, I did not notice from your photo that you are, not white. I never thought to look closely. Isn't that one of the issues? Whether or not it is an issue to examine the color of one's skin, and in doing so, often form an opinion based on that alone?
There is so much to be said, I will stop talking now and read.
~J~
joyonboard
May 21, 2010 11:56 AM
For the most part, there are great people on OS, who will do anything to help you. I posted the other day about losing my car, and have had PM's from people wanting to help me out by selling one of there cars to me, cheap. How nice is that! Great Post L!
scanner
May 21, 2010 12:03 PM
I have been gone a week from the computer and I am so glad you reposted this entry so I could get a chance to read it. Open and honest discussion is a must on this issue but I am not sure it is possible. The only thing we can do is try to have it one person at a time with those of any different race we come in contact with. Slowly, but surely, we will overcome raceism...I have to believe that.
Torman
May 21, 2010 12:04 PM
Scanner, I saw that and I was very touched by it. Just about everybody I read here is struggling some kind of way, and it seems to me that it's always the ones who have the least who are willing to share the most.
L in the Southeast
May 21, 2010 12:06 PM
David, welcome back! I can't wait to hear about your trip. Thanks for checking in. I am content to work on changing attitudes one person at a time. I've been doing it most of my life, but I need help. lol
L in the Southeast
May 21, 2010 12:59 PMBeing truly free of any shackles...be it slavery or social injustice or the inability to talk about such topics, requires some amount of courage...the courage to find out where that freedom will lead you...when you don't really know.
Our two wonderful loving dogs are restricted to the back yard...but when opportunities have sprung up to leave the yard,..like an open gate...they stop at the exit and sit. Freedom is dead ahead, but at what cost?
We fear these discussions because we do not really know where they lead. Will we be looked upon as evil or insenstivie to the plight of others? Will we be judged by either the good among us or even the bad? Will we be called upon to act when all we wish to do is to speak to it?
With the courage to speak comes the freedom to not only do so...but to act upon our words.
In short, is it responsibility?
J D Smith
May 21, 2010 01:20 PM
aim,
I didn't mean to skip you. The comments seem to be coming in out of order or something. Yes, Big Salon is a whole different animal, isn't it?
joyonboard: skipped you too. Yes, not noticing skin color is the ultimate goal. But realistically, we are visual beings and we take all kinds of cues from what we see. The danger comes from the assumptions made on the basis of visual cues.
L in the Southeast
May 21, 2010 01:31 PM
JD
I love your dog example. My dog demonstrates Pavlov's theory every single day. When I put ice into a glass, she jumps on the couch because she knows it's time to eat and I will share. When I unroll her grooming mat, she walks over to be lifted, even though she hates being groomed. There is no doubt that human beings get programmed from the day they are born, and it depends on who is doing the programming whether we are taught to be closed-minded or open-minded.
L in the Southeast
May 21, 2010 01:35 PM
Whoa, I missed where the old comments ended and the new ones started. If you do this AGAIN it's going to get really crazy!
It was fun rereading it though!
Doug Socks
May 21, 2010 02:46 PM
Doug,
I know. I getting dizzy just scrolling down the the bottom. lol
L in the Southeast
May 21, 2010 02:49 PM
You can never have any discussion about any topic when censorship is involved. All parties must know that they can say anything they want and that "anything" will be accepted by all parties. That is called civilized adult discourse. Otherwise every serious discussion about race with end up in a lame PC war. We must get these dormant latent racists to come out.
Also this notion that the white man of today is not responsible for slavery is pure American bullshit.
Racists must let it all out, and black Americans must chill out on the oversensitivity issues and keep their eyes on the ball: the white man owes them a lot. And that, as they say, is a fact.
Excellent post the first time; even better, the second. R
Thoth
May 21, 2010 03:37 PM
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